LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k

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From: Jeff Turk <jeff [at] formaspace.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 07:45:30 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Hello All,



I have long dreamed of owning and flying a IV-P, and the moment has come when it appears I have the means to acquire one. However, as I began to search for the right plane, it quickly came to my attention that not all IV-Ps are created equal. In fact, the depth of my ignorance in regard to the aircraft has become stunningly apparent.  The result is that I have become tied up in a kind of analysis paralysis as I have discovered aircraft which had major build problems, significant damage histories, incomplete logbooks, bank repossessions under difficult circumstances, and so on.



Another issue I have is how to appropriately value the aircraft if I ever do find one I feel safe flying. I can value a Bonanza pretty easily, but given the tremendous differences in available IV-Ps, I am not even sure how to begin.  I have just reached the point I can afford a IV-P at the lower to middle end of the value range, and the last thing I want to do is make a boneheaded financial move.



Some questions I might ask more educated owners and builders:



- Would you acquire a Lancair with a challenging or unprofessional build history at any price (assuming the problems were corrected)?



- Would you acquire a Lancair with a damage history (say a gear up landing or significant damage from being hit on the ramp by another aircraft) at any price?



- Would you acquire a plane with very little TT on it?  There are several aircraft for sale with less than 100 TT, or which have turned into hangar queens in the last few years.



- If so, what considerations would you have, and what pricing adjustments would you make?



- Any information you have on prices that IV-Ps have recently sold for, with times and equipment descriptions would be extremely helpful.  I suspect there is a large divergence between asking prices and realities.







Thanks,



Jeff

LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k

From: Jeff Turk <jeff [at] formaspace.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 07:26:03 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Hello All,

 

A couple of months ago I wrote an e-mail stating that I was looking for a great IV-P for less than $250k. Within minutes, I was overwhelmed by dozens of e-mails, many of which were very generous with thoughts, advice, and offers of time
to educate me about the market. Thank you so much to the more than a dozen of you who called or sent me e-mails with offers to call me in the hours after my e-mail went out. I am truly overwhelmed by your generosity and hope to meet all of you one day, and
am sorry I could not respond to everyone in a timely manner.

 

Many others called and e-mailed offering to sell me your planes, and others wrote just to ask what I learned and to post the most interesting feedback so they could learn from it as well. This is an effort to follow up on those latter requests!

 

 

Here are some of your collective suggestions in terms of the plane itself:

 

1.      
A majority of you advised not purchasing a IV-P built by anyone other than a professional shop (and by professional, they mean a shop that has built a number of Lancairs) due to the difficulty of detecting some potential issues. A minority
dissented, saying there were great builds by first time builders too.

2.      
Several people said to look for stock engines by Barrett.

3.      
I was warned to inspect the following: overall cosmetics as a proxy for build quality, paint, wing skins, shape of wings, mating of wings and control systems, anti-static grounding, leaky hydraulics, gear that aren’t square, customized
engines or fuel systems, chewed up gearboxes, heavy planes, binding of controls, poor ventilation, weak A/C, pressurization problems in doors and outflow valves, one wing heavy, old nose gear, shimmying nose gear, lack of rudder trim, lack of any electric
trim, tires more than two years old (especially in hot climates), older serial numbers, tail heavy planes, nose heavy planes, planes built by low wage labor, planes built by a variety of specific individuals, specific planes with all kinds of colorful individual
histories, poor electrical installations, strike finders, planes that sat for a while and therefore might have some hydraulic issues, and I obtained several winglet opinions. I was told to test the radios 100 miles out due to potential antenna problems. I
forgot to do this in flight testing. I should have carried a checklist with me when I went to check out planes.

4.      
Almost every person I spoke with was cool with a gear up landing on a runway.  More than half of the IV-Ps for sale right now have had some sort of prop strike, but no one seems too bothered by that. Of course, with an engine like the
TSIO-550, I would not purchase a plane that had so much as a hint of a sudden stop without a full tear down. Others may differ, but that’s where I draw the line.

 

What I learned about the purchase and training process:

 

5.      
I was strongly advised to hire Brad Simmons, Performance One, or Tim Wilson for the pre-buy, and I did hire Tim.

6.      
Almost everyone I spoke to was pretty passionate about LOBO training. I intended to take that training even before it was imposed on me by the insurer.

7.      
It was suggested I take a class by GAMI to learn more about the TSIO-550.

8.      
It was suggested I purchase a book by Bob Knockoll. I have not yet located this book, but apparently it has something to do with electrical systems. Multiple people spoke of the need for a standby alternator, standby battery, and appropriate
wiring to withstand a huge short.

 

What I learned about costs.  Please do not shoot the messenger
– I am just sharing what I have learned for the benefit of everyone who asked!

 

9.      
The insurance is astronomical! The best quote I got for liability and hull is $11,885 and requires 50 HOURS of dual! At 100 hours a year, the insurance cost alone is $118.85 an hour. And unfortunately, I can’t blame the insurers. There
were two hull losses last week alone. At least one was apparently a plane with a Performance engine in it, which appears to have suffered a catastrophic engine failure. The other was descending IFR, at night, though 3000’ at over 270 knots if I recall correctly.
I’m horrified for the friends and family of those who have perished and really frustrated by the circumstances of these crashes.

10.  
I have been repeatedly warned that the plane is lot more expensive than I think it will be, but no one would tell me how much. So I made a spreadsheet. I came out to almost $44,000 a year for 110 hours. That’s $400 an hour for those
who are counting. That includes $11,885 of insurance, which is 27% of the total projected cost. To be honest, that’s a whole lot more than the $250/hr. I expected and comes close to putting the Lancair in the cost category of much larger aircraft.

11.  
No one could really tell me exactly what they thought any given plane was worth and reminded me that the market is very illiquid. A couple of people did say that in the current market, there is no piston-powered IV-P worth more than
$300K. Several planes in 10/10 condition have traded for under $200K. The least expensive deal I had credible information about was $140K.

 

 

--Jeff

 

 

LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k

From: pete [at] leapfrogventures.com <pete [at] leapfrogventures.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:17:20 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

You should consider an ES-P:

 

-          $5k/year for $1m hull/liability insurance

-          Only HPAT required – no minimum hours

-          No recorded gear up landings to date

-          Only one recorded fatal, and it appears to be medically related

-          Slightly slower, but, hey, once you are up there, why the hurry to get back down

 

Pete

 

LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k

From: Craig Jimenez <cj [at] AwlBiz.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 07:53:09 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

What are real-world speeds and ranges for ES-Ps at say 14,000' and

24,000'?  The lower alt may be useful for shorter trips, ATC restrictions,

or strong westerlies.



Also, are there many with ThermX or TKS, and if so, what's been the

experience?  I'd expect a smaller percentage hit in speed from anti-ice on

the ES-P than on the sleek IVP, but may be wrong.



Have enough been built for there to be a good body of knowledge on

maintenance and operations?



I like the short takeoff numbers (at least as published) & good cabin

pressure differential.



Craig



> You should consider an ES-P:

>

> -          $5k/year for $1m hull/liability insurance

>

> -          Only HPAT required - no minimum hours

>

> -          No recorded gear up landings to date

>

> -          Only one recorded fatal, and it appears to be medically related

>

> -          Slightly slower, but,



LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k

From: Shane Bangerter <Shane [at] rbr3.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:28:02 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Attached is a very unscientific spreadsheet that I used when considering whether to buy a IV-P, ES-P, TBM, etc.  You can change many of the parameters/assumptions in the spreadsheet.   I opted for the iv-p despite the higher insurance costs because of its speed, efficiency and range and do not regret my decision after flying the iv-p for 2  1/2 years and nearly 400 hours.  At todays prices, the iv-p is a steal, and for the money nothing can touch its performance.  It is safe with proper training (I highly recommend LOBO) and a blast to fly.  If you have any questions regarding the spreadsheet or iv-p ownership, give me a call.  620 338 1619.  



Shane

89GG



-----Original Message-----

From: Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net (mailto:)

] On Behalf Of Craig Jimenez

Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 6:53 AM

To: Lancair Mailing List

Subject: [LML] Re: LNC4 - Looking for a great IV-P less than $250k



What are real-world speeds and ranges for ES-Ps at say 14,000' and 24,000'?  The lower alt may be useful for shorter trips, ATC restrictions, or strong westerlies.



Also, are there many with ThermX or TKS, and if so, what's been the experience?  I'd expect a smaller percentage hit in speed from anti-ice on the ES-P than on the sleek IVP, but may be wrong.



Have enough been built for there to be a good body of knowledge on maintenance and operations?



I like the short takeoff numbers (at least as published) & good cabin pressure differential.



Craig



> You should consider an ES-P:

>

> -          $5k/year for $1m hull/liability insurance

>

> -          Only HPAT required - no minimum hours

>

> -          No recorded gear up landings to date

>

> -          Only one recorded fatal, and it appears to be medically related

>

> -          Slightly slower, but,





--

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