Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

Forums: 

From: Don Barnes <don [at] cellarideas.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:44:46 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Happened to Scott and he did what you're supposed to. Fly the airplane. Calmly come back, land and latch.





On Apr 16, 2008, at 5:01 PM, Alan K. Adamson wrote:


I'm not one for speculating what happened, but from accounts and now this

picture (takeoff shot of the Legacy that crashed at SNF)... .It appears that

at least part of the trouble was the canopy wasn't latched...



Ok, so who knows how these things fly, if they fly when it comes unlatched

while in flight or in this case, appears to be unlatched prior to

takeoff....



Darn, I feel for the family, but we all need to learn from mistakes and it

appears that "5 alive" wasn't done in this case prior to takeoff :(.... Sad

and probably avoidable...



http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg



Alan - Thanks to Jon Socolof for sleuthing out the picture

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Alan K. Adamson <aadamson [at] highrf.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:44:46 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I'm not one for speculating what happened, but from accounts and now this

picture (takeoff shot of the Legacy that crashed at SNF)... .It appears that

at least part of the trouble was the canopy wasn't latched...



Ok, so who knows how these things fly, if they fly when it comes unlatched

while in flight or in this case, appears to be unlatched prior to

takeoff....



Darn, I feel for the family, but we all need to learn from mistakes and it

appears that "5 alive" wasn't done in this case prior to takeoff :(.... Sad

and probably avoidable...



http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg



Alan - Thanks to Jon Socolof for sleuthing out the picture

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <Sky2high [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:15:12 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

The canopy is not that bad of a problem.  Noise and wind are
distractions but the airplane is flyable.  The canopy won't open much
further in controlled maneuvering flight as the lift produced by the air flow
over it is counteracted by the forces of air flow against the canopy.
 
Perhaps one should review the relationship between the cowl and the
prop spinner in the picture as it may indicate something beyond the normal
"lift" on the cowl in climb and the thrust forces from the engine/prop. 
 
The gear was down and should have stayed that way thru an emergency return
to land (assuming enough power remained) OR, if enough runway was available, the
takeoff should have been aborted.
 
These are the toughies - there never will be answers to How? Why?
.............
 
Grayhawk
 
 
In a message dated 4/16/2008 7:45:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
aadamson [at] highrf.com writes:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Paul Bricker <pbricker [at] att.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:39:24 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message



Looking at the photo it does appear that
the front of the cowling is “high” relative to the spinner. The
cowling does appear to be still in position on the fuselage (no gaps and proper
alignment of the paint features). I don’t know the condition of the wreckage
but a broken upper motor mount could result in a nose down thrust vector.
Enough to cause loss of control?

 

Paul Bricker

 

From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high [at] aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008
6:15 PM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

The canopy is not that bad of a
problem.  Noise and wind are distractions but the airplane is
flyable.  The canopy won't open much further in controlled maneuvering
flight as the lift produced by the air flow over it is counteracted by the
forces of air flow against the canopy.

 

Perhaps one should review the
relationship between the cowl and the prop spinner in the picture as it
may indicate something beyond the normal "lift" on the cowl in climb
and the thrust forces from the engine/prop. 

 

The gear was down and should have stayed
that way thru an emergency return to land (assuming enough power remained) OR,
if enough runway was available, the takeoff should have been aborted.

 

These are the toughies - there never will
be answers to How? Why? .............

 

Grayhawk

 

 

In a message dated 4/16/2008 7:45:09 P.M.
Central Daylight Time, aadamson [at] highrf.com writes:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg




Need a
new ride? Check out the largest site for
U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:01:14 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for vonjet [at] gmail.com:



 I think the cowling just looks that way because of the angle. The camera is

coming from a low point up and slightly aft of center. That would make the

left intake on the cowl appear high above the spinner line.

 But then again it almost looks like the engine is drooping  down. So who

knows

 Bryan

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Greg Ward <gregw [at] onestopdesign.biz>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:12:50 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Coincidentally, I am working on my canopy as we speak, and with it open that much, there is also a lip up in front.  Possibly there was a lift factor forward, and it came off, just a fiberglass hinge there holding things down.......

Greg Ward



----- Original Message ----- From: <marv [at] lancair.net>

To: <lml>

Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:01 PM

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation




Posted for vonjet [at] gmail.com:



 I think the cowling just looks that way because of the angle. The camera is

coming from a low point up and slightly aft of center. That would make the

left intake on the cowl appear high above the spinner line.

 But then again it almost looks like the engine is drooping  down. So who

knows

 Bryan

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



--

For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Kyrilian Dyer <kyrilian_av [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 00:12:50 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

First, I'd like to offer my sincerest condolences to the Schkolnik family.  I had the pleasure of meeting Gerard on Friday evening and found him to be extremely friendly and enthusiastic about the plane.  I saw him again and met his wife on Saturday morning.

I always hate these bouts of speculation following an accident, not because I think it's improper--I think there's often much to be learned by the rest of us by reviewing accident records or discussing causes--but because it means another of our brethren has been killed in/by a sport so dear to our hearts.

Regarding the spinner/cowl misalignment; though the deflection may have been greater in flight, pictures I took on Friday showed some static deflection on the ground (see attached).  I don't know if this is a reasonable amount of sag so won't speculate further.

Regards,
- Kyrilian

Paul Bricker <pbricker [at] att.net> wrote:


Looking at the photo it does appear that the front of the cowling is “high” relative to the spinner. The cowling does appear to be still in position on the fuselage (no gaps and proper alignment of the paint features). I don’t know the condition of the wreckage but a broken upper motor mount could result in a nose down thrust vector. Enough to cause loss of
control?

 

Paul Bricker

Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


Image


IMG_1870s.JPG

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:33:20 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for vtailjeff [at] aol.com:



 Take a look at a lot of IV's and IVPs and you will find the same issue.. the

rubber engine vibration isolators compress and the engine  sags 1/4"-1/2"after

the aircraft is put in service. Looks fine for years while you are building

but then the Lord mounts and compress & voila!

 

 Jeff

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:33:56 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for vtailjeff [at] aol.com:



 Scott said "

 

 The canopy is not that bad of a problem."

 

 

 which may be true from an aerodyanamic and controllability stanpoint BUT some

pilots come to grief because they get distracted by such an event and simply

fail to fly the airplane....

 

 Jeff

 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Gary Casey <glcasey [at] adelphia.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:35:00 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Paul may be on to something.  I looked at the original picture sent by Tom and if you look at the bottom of the spinner (not the top), it looks like it extends beyond the cowl.  In the other picture of the plane on the ground there was some sag, but not enough to bring the spinner below the cowl line.  A broken engine mount?  Maybe the canopy being unlatched had nothing to do with it except to cause a distraction.  Normally, a slight nose-down thrust vector is a stabilizing influence, not destabilizing.  As I understand it the plane had low hours, so the fatigue failures of mounts we have seen shouldn't have been a factor.

Gary Casey


Looking at the photo it does appear that the front of the cowling is “high” relative to the spinner. The cowling does appear to be still in position on the fuselage (no gaps and proper alignment of the paint features). I don’t know the condition of the wreckage but a broken upper motor mount could result in a nose down thrust vector. Enough to cause loss of control?

 

Paul Bricker

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: John Barrett <2thman [at] cablespeed.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:35:00 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Greg Ward wrote:



Possibly there was a lift factor forward, and it came off, just a fiberglass

hinge there holding things down.......



What fiberglass hinge are you referring to?



Regards,



John Barrett, CEO

Leading Edge Composites

PO Box 428

Port Hadlock, WA 98339

www.carbinge.com

 







No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008

5:34 PM

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marknlisa [at] hometel.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:35:00 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Can the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an optical illusion?

Regards,

Mark Sletten

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:51:29 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for vonjet [at] gmail.com:



 In regards to low life hours and fatigue.

 My friends 360 exhaust cracked and broke completly off at the welds with just

57 hours from new. And no he doesn't run LOP.

 

 Bryan

 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Taylor, David <dtaylor [at] crescentpark.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:13:03 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

The picture of this Legacy on the ground has the same angle of
spinner to cowl.

 

http://www.lancair.com/Main/pdf_documents/For%20Sale%20Docs/N1177M-Flyer...

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing
List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of marknlisa [at] hometel.com

Sent: Thursday, 04-17-2008 12:35

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation

 

Can
the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an optical
illusion?

Regards,

Mark Sletten

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Greg Ward <gregw [at] onestopdesign.biz>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:46:04 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Sorry John that I wasn't clear.  In the kit I bought (3rd Owner, #178), the canopy hinges are bolted to a fiberglass layup that is bonded to the inside of the firewall and the top of the fuselage.  When I first looked at it, I thought that I would check back against the manual and see if it was done right.  Haven't gotten there yet, but this discussion put it at the top of my list of ongoing fixes that I have had to do to get this Kit right, and agreeing with Lancair's standards.  I trust my life to nothing at this point in the construction, that I haven't totally gone over personally, and asked questions about when appropriate, ask the tech people at Lancair.....(:-). My thinking on this was, a. at 100-120 kts., with the canopy open, there would be a tendency for the wind to go under the leading edge of the canopy, and b.  how much can that hinge arrangement, at least the way it's installed on my plane, take?  Put it in the bank, that there will be a full review on my part of this installation.

Greg Ward

Lancair 20B in progress



----- Original Message ----- From: "John Barrett" <2thman [at] cablespeed.com>

To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:35 AM

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation





Greg Ward wrote:



Possibly there was a lift factor forward, and it came off, just a fiberglass

hinge there holding things down.......



What fiberglass hinge are you referring to?



Regards,



John Barrett, CEO

Leading Edge Composites

PO Box 428

Port Hadlock, WA 98339

www.carbinge.com









No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.0/1382 - Release Date: 4/16/2008

5:34 PM







--

For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Alan Adamson <aadamson [at] highrf.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:46:05 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
with all the discussion about cowlings... It does indeed
appear that the first flight pictures that were included in the sale brochure
had the same effect of showing a more down angle than you'd suggest was
normal... However as we have all learned, the paint lines are sculpted and not
straight and the cowl attach point line can't be used as the waterline, it may
or may not even be close.
 
As for the comments about the Lord Mounts compression over
time and the engine sagging, that is correct and the factory suggests that you
put one washer under the top firewall to motor mount attach points until you've
flow for a while and then remove those washers.  This will pick the sag
back up and allow the cowling to continue to fit.
 
From: Lancair Mailing List
[lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Taylor, David
Sent:
Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:13 PM
To:
lml [at] lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

The
picture of this Legacy on the ground has the same angle of spinner to
cowl.

 

http://www.lancair.com/Main/pdf_documents/For%20Sale%20Docs/N1177M-Flyer...

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing
List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of
marknlisa [at] hometel.com
Sent: Thursday, 04-17-2008
12:35
To: lml [at] lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy
crash - speculation

 

Can
the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an optical
illusion?

Regards,

Mark
Sletten

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Matt Reeves <mattreeves [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:46:05 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Possibly he knew he was going down and opened the canopy to assure he could get out after the crash?  No one knows I guess.  My instructors taught me that 25 years ago.  Tighten the seatbelts, crack open the door.  Sad news indeed.  I saw the plane the day before and it was a beauty.
 


"Taylor, David" <dtaylor [at] crescentpark.com> wrote:
The picture of this Legacy on the ground has the same angle of spinner to cowl.

 

http://www.lancair.com/Main/pdf_documents/For%20Sale%20Docs/N1177M-Flyer...

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of marknlisa [at] hometel.com
Sent: Thursday, 04-17-2008 12:35
To: lml [at] lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation

 

Can the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an optical illusion?

Regards,

Mark Sletten

 


Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <Sky2high [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:46:05 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Mark, et al,
 
Nice job with the photo.  Look again carefully at the spinner, the gap
at the top and the apparent angle the spinner is at laterally.  To me, it
not only looks excessively down but severely cocked to the left.  To me,
the broken engine mount speculation probability is raised along with
consequent uncontrolability. 
 
Jeff's fly-the-airplane comments notwithstanding, the canopy probably came
open before takeoff and it is hard to imagine why or how that was ignored.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 11:35:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Can the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an
optical illusion?





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


Image


Spinner_Cowl_Angle.jpg

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <VTAILJEFF [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:27:56 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

The photo shows the aircraft just off the runway with the gear still down.
I sincerely doubt he even had time to think about opening the canopy.
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 8:46:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
mattreeves [at] yahoo.com writes:

Possibly he knew he was going down and opened the canopy to assure he
could get out after the crash?  No one knows I guess.  My
instructors taught me that 25 years ago.  Tighten the seatbelts, crack
open the door.  Sad news indeed.  I saw the plane the day before and
it was a beauty.
 


"Taylor, David" <dtaylor [at] crescentpark.com>
wrote:
The
picture of this Legacy on the ground has the same angle of spinner to
cowl.

 

http://www.lancair.com/Main/pdf_documents/For%20Sale%20Docs/N1177M-Flyer...

 

 

From: Lancair Mailing
List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of
marknlisa [at] hometel.com
Sent: Thursday, 04-17-2008
12:35
To: lml [at] lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re:
Legacy crash - speculation

 

Can
the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of an
optical illusion?

Regards,

Mark
Sletten

 


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <VTAILJEFF [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:27:56 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Scott,
 
A broken engine mount will pretty easy to figure out even with a severe
post crash fire given that the engine mount is steel. We will have to wait to
see what the NTSB finds.
 
Jeff
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 8:46:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Sky2high [at] aol.com writes:

Mark, et al,
 
Nice job with the photo.  Look again carefully at the spinner, the
gap at the top and the apparent angle the spinner is at laterally.  To
me, it not only looks excessively down but severely cocked to the left. 
To me, the broken engine mount speculation probability is raised along
with consequent uncontrolability. 
 
Jeff's fly-the-airplane comments notwithstanding, the canopy probably
came open before takeoff and it is hard to imagine why or how that was
ignored.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 4/17/2008 11:35:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Can the the angle the photo was taken from create this much of
an optical illusion?




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL
Autos.



/files/LML/46917-01-01-02-R/X.MA1.1208487636 [at] aol.com" sandbox="" xwidth="730" xheight="650" datasize="26416" id="MA1.1208487636">

--
For
archives and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


Image


Spinner_Cowl_Angle.jpg

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Steve Reeves <sreeves [at] sc.rr.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:27:56 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I tend to agree.  I know my instructor, when we were doing instrument training in a Cheetah, would tell me to slide the canopy back, stick your shoe in it (or something similar) and slide it back onto whatever you were cramming into it.



Steve





t 09:46 PM 4/17/2008, you wrote:

Possibly he knew he was going down and opened the canopy to assure he could get out after the crash?  No one knows I guess.  My instructors taught me that 25 years ago.  Tighten the seatbelts, crack open the door.  Sad news indeed.  I saw the plane the day before and it was a beauty.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Steve Reeves <sreeves [at] sc.rr.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:27:56 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I concur.  I saw it and thought I must be seeing
things.  My prop had some sag before I replaced the mounts with Lord
soft mounts (on Scott's suggestion).  It lines up nicely now, as the
old mounts were simply old.  Anyone know how many years/hours they
usually last?


Steve Reeves

Glasair1FT 38SR



Nice job with the photo. 
Look again carefully at the spinner, the gap at the top and the apparent
angle the spinner is at laterally.  To me, it not only looks
excessively down but severely cocked to the left.  To me, the broken
engine mount speculation probability is raised along with consequent
uncontrolability. 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: lanny <poprundell [at] bellsouth.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:27:56 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

 

 

First I would like to extend my sincere
condolences to the family of the Legacy pilot.  I was at Sun-N-Fun Friday and Saturday and saw
the airplane.  I was a beautifully built
aircraft and I was hoping to meet the owner but never got the opportunity.

I don’t know how old the airplane
was or how long the engine had been hanging on the mount, but it usually
happens that the engine will sag in the mount over time.  This is a normal thing and causes only
cosmetic problems.  Sometimes in sever
cases in a tightly cowled engine the exhaust pipes or
some of the baffling will begin to rub.  Lycoming
engines with the alternator mounted on the front will sometimes wear a hole in
the lower cowling from the pulley rubbing.  This doe’s not cause
loss of control nor doe’s a broken engine mount unless the engine comes
off.  I have seen quite a few ag aircraft land with broken
engine mounts from hours of high stress turns and countless landings on rough
runways.  You usually experience a new
vibration.

What can cause loss control is a canopy that
is hinged at the front and comes open in flight.  About 10 years ago my son and I were test flying a Lancair 320
with a forward hinged canopy.  The latch
looked overbuilt consisting of a ½” threaded bolt with a knob on it.  You closed the canopy and screwed the bolt
that was mounted to the canopy bulkhead into a receptacle in the rear of the
canopy.  The tighter you turned it the
tighter the canopy pulled down onto the canopy seal.  Crude but effective.  We went out for about a half hour flight to
get familiar with the airplane.  As we
were descending to pattern altitude, the receptacle in the canopy frame that
the bolt screwed into, pulled out of the frame and the
canopy came open.  It popped up about 4
to 6 inches at the rear.  When it popped
up, the nose pitched up sharply.  I
countered by pushing forward on the stick. 
The canopy dropped down in the rear and the nose now pitched down sharply.  I now had the power to idle trying to slow
down.  As the nose pitched down, I countered
by pulling back, the nose suddenly pitched up again.  This was not a pilot induced movement, it
seemed that the canopy was flying straight and level and the airplane was
pitching up and down around the hinge point.  My son was finally able to get his hands on
the rear of the frame and pull it down and the pitching stopped.  While flying the pattern to land, we tried
moving the canopy up and down and found that it controlled the pitch.  Push the canopy up and the nose pitched up,
pull it down and the nose pitched down. 
If you did not hold it stable in one position, it was almost impossible to
control the pitch of the airplane.  Also,
the higher the speed the worse the condition became.  If my son had not been with me and had the
presence of mind to get hold of the canopy, I am not sure I could have gotten
it under control by myself. 

Always make sure the canopy is locked
before takeoff.  While the forward hinged
canopy seems like the safest way to go, it may not be.  Some aircraft have forward hinged canopies and
seem like the least desirable, but these are usually designed to rip off in the
event it comes open.  The Glasair uses a Gull wing that is designed to rip off if it
comes open.

The forward hinged canopy is not a bad
design.  I just has
to be locked in flight.  I worry that
some people don’t worry about it coming open because they figure it will
just ride stable until you can close it.  This can be a very dangerous attitude.

Happy Landings.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:40 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for "Taylor, David" <dtaylor [at] crescentpark.com>:



 Are there any Legacy guys out there that have flown with an open canopy

 and landed that way?  I thought this was not that big of a deal.  I know

 it will affect the pitch movements which you have to be ready for.

  

 The issue of the engine mounts is a little silly.  I know the pic looks

 weird but really - the canopy is open!

 

 

[ yea, Brent's friend Occam is giggling at us all.. -Rob ]

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry [at] bellsouth.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:50 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I have a set of Barry Controls mounts for the Legacy that I will not be
using.  They are new in the box.  Number 94150-41 and CD of 0346.

I will take $50 each including shipping.  They go for $100 +/-
plus shipping.

 

Bill B 

 

From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Reeves

Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:28
AM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

I concur.  I saw it and thought I must be seeing things.  My
prop had some sag before I replaced the mounts with Lord soft mounts (on
Scott's suggestion).  It lines up nicely now, as the old mounts were
simply old.  Anyone know how many years/hours they usually last?



Steve Reeves

Glasair1FT 38SR






Nice job with the photo.  Look again carefully at the spinner, the
gap at the top and the apparent angle the spinner is at laterally.  To me,
it not only looks excessively down but severely cocked to the left.  To
me, the broken engine mount speculation probability is raised along with
consequent uncontrolability. 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Gary Casey <glcasey [at] adelphia.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:50 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

One more observation from the original picture that was posted:  The tailpipes appear to be at considerably different angles - the left pipe is very high, almost beyond horizontal, while the right pipe is angled down significantly.  While there is no rule that says they couldn't have been built that way, I would doubt that a competent builder would leave it like that.  Usually there is a ball swivel joint by the exhaust manifold and then a hangar to hold the pipe in position, so of the left side of the engine dropped, which would be the normal reaction to engine torque, the left pipe would angle up.  Is this another clue that indicates a mount failure?

Gary Casey

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Bill & Sue <5zq [at] cox.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:51 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Interesting...I had a canopy open in flight. Uhhh,
well, yes I took off without it latched, idiot that I am. I noticed no
uncontrollable pitching. The canopy stayed open 2 or 3 inches. The airplane flew
quite normally...no problems.
 
Bill Harrelson
N5ZQ 320 1,475 hrs
N6ZQ  IV under construction
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
poprundell [at] bellsouth.net (lanny)

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:27
AM
Subject: [LML] Legacy crash -
speculation
 
 
 
--snip--What can
cause loss control is a canopy that is hinged at the front and comes open in
flight. --snip 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marknlisa [at] hometel.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:31:51 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Even disregarding the possible aerodynamic issues, I don't think opening the canopy in preparation for a crash is such a good idea.

I think an unlatched canopy has a much greater possibility of being torn from the fuselage. If it *IS* torn from the fuselage, I would think there's a good chance it will strike the occupant(s). Additionally, a closed and latched canopy can provide the occupants protection from debris, fuel and fire postcrash.

If you are concerned the canopy might jam closed, consider this: I recall a warning in the USAF KC-135 Dash-1 (operating manual) that states (in so many words) any crash violent enough to jam a hatch closed will likely provide a fuselage break for egress.


Regards,

Mark Sletten

 

Steve Reeves [sreeves [at] sc.rr.com] said:

> I tend to agree. I know my instructor, when we were doing instrument
> training in a Cheetah, would tell > me to slide the canopy back, stick
> your shoe in it (or something similar) and slide it back onto
> whatever you were cramming into it.

> Steve

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <VTAILJEFF [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:48 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Mark,
 
Excellent thoughts!
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 11:32:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Even disregarding the possible aerodynamic issues,
I don't think opening the canopy in preparation for a crash is such a good
idea.

I think an unlatched canopy has a much greater
possibility of being torn from the fuselage. If it *IS* torn from the
fuselage, I would think there's a good chance it will strike the occupant(s).
Additionally, a closed and latched canopy can provide the occupants protection
from debris, fuel and fire postcrash.

If you are concerned the canopy might jam closed,
consider this: I recall a warning in the USAF KC-135 Dash-1 (operating manual)
that states (in so many words) any crash violent enough to jam a hatch closed
will likely provide a fuselage break for egress.


Regards,

Mark Sletten

 

Steve Reeves [sreeves [at] sc.rr.com] said:

> I tend to agree. I know my instructor, when we were doing
instrument
> training in a Cheetah, would tell > me to slide the
canopy back, stick
> your shoe in it (or something similar) and slide it
back onto
> whatever you were cramming into it.

>
Steve





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <Sky2high [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Bill,
 
Here is a possibility - He purposely took off with the canopy open - SNF
heat being what it was. And, he knew the flight characteristics of an open
canopy were benign. All things being equal.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 11:32:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
5zq [at] cox.net writes:

Interesting...I had a canopy open in flight.
Uhhh, well, yes I took off without it latched, idiot that I am. I noticed no
uncontrollable pitching. The canopy stayed open 2 or 3 inches. The airplane
flew quite normally...no problems.
 





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Art Jensen <flycassutts [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Mark,



I agree with about leaving the canopy closed during a

crash.  



And for those thinking the close up of the picture of

the Legacy in flight indicates the mount is broken, I

looked at mine today and notice the lines on the side

of the cowl look exactly the same.  Did I build it

wrong?  Don't think so since Tim Ong helped with the

cowl installation.



Art





--- marknlisa [at] hometel.com wrote:



 I

> don't think opening the canopy in preparation for a

> crash is such a good idea.

>

> I think an unlatched canopy has a much greater

> possibility of being torn from the fuselage. If it

> *IS* torn from the fuselage, I would think there's a

> good chance it will strike the occupant(s).

> Additionally, a closed and latched canopy can

> provide the occupants protection from debris, fuel

> and fire postcrash.

> Regards,

>

> Mark Sletten







      ____________________________________________________________________________________

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: dk3 <dk3 [at] ix.netcom.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message



I’m guessing that maybe the take off
power thrust with a broken mount torsionally twisted
the fuselage enough to pop the canopy. My condolences to the bereaved
and to the homebuilding community. It sure looked good.  don

 

From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high [at] aol.com

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
6:46 PM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

Mark, et al,

 

Nice job with the photo.  Look again
carefully at the spinner, the gap at the top and the apparent angle the spinner
is at laterally.  To me, it not only looks excessively down but severely
cocked to the left.  To me, the broken engine mount
speculation probability is raised along with consequent
uncontrolability. 

 

Jeff's fly-the-airplane comments
notwithstanding, the canopy probably came open before takeoff and it is hard to
imagine why or how that was ignored.

 

Grayhawk

 

In a message dated 4/17/2008 11:35:48
A.M. Central Daylight Time, marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Can the the angle the photo was taken
from create this much of an optical illusion?




Need a
new ride? Check out the largest site for
U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <mmcmanus [at] grandecom.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I've done it twice (yes I know, I should ALWAYS use the checklist), but the

airplane flew fine.

Matt McManus

LNC2 360





Quoting Bill & Sue <5zq [at] cox.net>:



> <snip> The airplane flew quite normally...<snip>

>

> Bill Harrelson

> N5ZQ 320 1,475 hrs

> N6ZQ  IV under construction

>

>

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: lanny

>   To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

>   Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:27 AM

>   Subject: [LML] Legacy crash - speculation

>

>

>

>   --snip--What can cause loss control is a canopy that is hinged at the front

> and comes open in flight. --snip

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Dominic V Crain <domcrain [at] tpg.com.au>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I, too, had the right rear canopy (parallel)
latch pop open after take-off. Frightened the b******s out of me. Easily (re)-latched.
Also my emergency checklist nominates the two rear latches unlocked before a
forced landing.

Cheers

Dom Crain

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Lancair Mailing List
[lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill
& Sue

Sent: Saturday, 19
April 2008 2:32 AM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

Interesting...I had a canopy open in
flight. Uhhh, well, yes I took off without it latched, idiot that I am. I
noticed no uncontrollable pitching. The canopy stayed open 2 or 3 inches. The
airplane flew quite normally...no problems.

 

Bill Harrelson

N5ZQ 320 1,475 hrs

N6ZQ  IV under construction

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: poprundell [at] bellsouth.net (lanny)

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net


Sent: Friday,
April 18, 2008 2:27 AM

Subject: [LML]
Legacy crash - speculation

 

 

 

--snip--What
can cause loss control is a canopy that is hinged at the front and comes open
in flight. --snip

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Jim Nordin <panelmaker [at] earthlink.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:38:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

This should clear all speculation about
angle of view et al. Does not look cocked to either side to me. I don’t
have a Legacy but it could be poor cowling fit. Could be lord mount sag.

Broken engine mount would be a possible
catastrophe. Remember the pictures I sent of the ES mount that had broken in 4
places. Nearly a disaster.

Jim

 

From: Lancair Mailing
List [lml [at] lancaironline.net]">mailto:lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf
Of Sky2high [at] aol.com

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
8:46 PM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

Mark, et al,

 

Nice job with the photo.  Look again
carefully at the spinner, the gap at the top and the apparent angle the spinner
is at laterally.  To me, it not only looks excessively down but severely
cocked to the left.  To me, the broken engine mount
speculation probability is raised along with consequent
uncontrolability. 

 

Jeff's fly-the-airplane comments
notwithstanding, the canopy probably came open before takeoff and it is hard to
imagine why or how that was ignored.

 

Grayhawk

 

In a message dated 4/17/2008 11:35:48
A.M. Central Daylight Time, marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Can the the angle the photo was taken
from create this much of an optical illusion?





Need a
new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.1/1384 - Release Date: 4/17/2008 3:47 PM


Image


image001.jpg

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <MikeEasley [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:12:59 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I departing fly-ins, we often don't follow our "normal" run-up
procedures.  We end up checking the mags and prop rolling down a
taxiway.  So it's possible he didn't get the canopy latched as he
went through his before takeoff checklist.  But I doubt that's the
cause of the crash.  I'm guessing he attempted to latch the canopy shortly
after takeoff and got slow, stalled and spun.  It's a sad, but a fairly
common scenario.
 
My sincere condolences to the family.
 
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Tom Gourley <tom.gourley [at] verizon.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:12:59 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

After reading the recent posts on this subject I
think some of the hypotheses surrounding a possible broken engine mount and how
the canopy came to be unlatched are starting to get a little far out
there.  I suggest it's time to give it a rest and let the experts determine
the cause; even though that will probably take longer than we'd
like.
 
Tom Gourley
 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Dana Westphal <needforspeed01 [at] cox.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:13:00 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I was at the Lancair factory a few years
back and happened to talk to one of the test pilots who was doing the “fly
off” on a Legacy.  I asked him how it was going and he said great, except
for the canopy coming open in flight, apparently due to an improper adjustment of
the over center latch.  Anyway, he handled the emergency well, but then again,
he was a test pilot … 

 

Dana

 

From: lanny
[poprundell [at] bellsouth.net]">mailto:poprundell [at] bellsouth.net]

Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 1:28
AM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

 

 

First I would like to extend my sincere
condolences to the family of the Legacy pilot.  I was at Sun-N-Fun Friday and
Saturday and saw the airplane.  I was a beautifully built aircraft and I was
hoping to meet the owner but never got the opportunity.

I don’t know how old the airplane
was or how long the engine had been hanging on the mount, but it usually
happens that the engine will sag in the mount over time.  This is a normal
thing and causes only cosmetic problems.  Sometimes in sever cases in a tightly
cowled engine the exhaust pipes or some of the baffling will begin to rub. 
Lycoming engines with the alternator mounted on the front will sometimes wear a
hole in the lower cowling from the pulley rubbing.  This doe’s not cause
loss of control nor doe’s a broken engine mount unless the engine comes
off.  I have seen quite a few ag aircraft land with broken engine mounts from
hours of high stress turns and countless landings on rough runways.  You
usually experience a new vibration.

What can cause loss control is a canopy
that is hinged at the front and comes open in flight.  About 10 years ago my
son and I were test flying a Lancair 320 with a forward hinged canopy.  The
latch looked overbuilt consisting of a ½” threaded bolt with a knob on it. 
You closed the canopy and screwed the bolt that was mounted to the canopy
bulkhead into a receptacle in the rear of the canopy.  The tighter you turned
it the tighter the canopy pulled down onto the canopy seal.  Crude but
effective.  We went out for about a half hour flight to get familiar with the
airplane.  As we were descending to pattern altitude, the receptacle in the
canopy frame that the bolt screwed into, pulled out of the frame and the canopy
came open.  It popped up about 4 to 6 inches at the rear.  When it popped up,
the nose pitched up sharply.  I countered by pushing forward on the stick.  The
canopy dropped down in the rear and the nose now pitched down sharply.  I now
had the power to idle trying to slow down.  As the nose pitched down, I countered
by pulling back, the nose suddenly pitched up again.  This was not a pilot
induced movement, it seemed that the canopy was flying straight and level and
the airplane was pitching up and down around the hinge point.  My son was
finally able to get his hands on the rear of the frame and pull it down and the
pitching stopped.  While flying the pattern to land, we tried moving the canopy
up and down and found that it controlled the pitch.  Push the canopy up and the
nose pitched up, pull it down and the nose pitched down.  If you did not hold
it stable in one position, it was almost impossible to control the pitch of the
airplane.  Also, the higher the speed the worse the condition became.  If my
son had not been with me and had the presence of mind to get hold of the
canopy, I am not sure I could have gotten it under control by myself. 

Always make sure the canopy is locked
before takeoff.  While the forward hinged canopy seems like the safest way to
go, it may not be.  Some aircraft have forward hinged canopies and seem like
the least desirable, but these are usually designed to rip off in the event it
comes open.  The Glasair uses a Gull wing that is designed to rip off if it
comes open.

The forward hinged canopy is not a bad
design.  I just has to be locked in flight.  I worry that some people
don’t worry about it coming open because they figure it will just ride
stable until you can close it.  This can be a very dangerous attitude.

Happy Landings.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Dana Westphal <needforspeed01 [at] cox.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:13:00 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Maybe the engine sag or speculated broken
motor mount caused the canopy to unlatch through some torque or twist imparted
to the firewall and/or fuselage, i.e., the canopy unlatching was a symptom of a
bigger problem …

 

Dana

 

From: Gary Casey
[glcasey [at] adelphia.net]">mailto:glcasey [at] adelphia.net]

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008
11:35 AM

To: lml [at] lancaironline.net

Subject: Re: Legacy crash -
speculation

 

Paul may be on to something.  I looked at the original picture
sent by Tom and if you look at the bottom of the spinner (not the top), it
looks like it extends beyond the cowl.  In the other picture of the plane
on the ground there was some sag, but not enough to bring the spinner below the
cowl line.  A broken engine mount?  Maybe the canopy being unlatched
had nothing to do with it except to cause a distraction.  Normally, a
slight nose-down thrust vector is a stabilizing influence, not destabilizing.
 As I understand it the plane had low hours, so the fatigue failures of
mounts we have seen shouldn't have been a factor.

Gary Casey

 

Looking
at the photo it does appear that the front of the cowling is “high” relative to
the spinner. The cowling does appear to be still in position on the fuselage
(no gaps and proper alignment of the paint features). I don’t know the
condition of the wreckage but a broken upper motor mount could result in a nose
down thrust vector. Enough to cause loss of control?

 

Paul Bricker

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Tammy and Mike Salzman <arrow54t [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 11:06:23 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Please don't do like Mike Easley is saying...especially at fly-ins! ( We end up checking the mags and prop rolling down a
taxiway.)  We need to have the discipline to do our procedures the same each and every time we do them.  It's an invitation for a disaster if we don't.  Please take the time to do it right, there is not much room for error in these high performance aircraft.  Normal procedures done completely and consistently will go a long way to keeping you alive for the next fly-in adventure.

Mike Salzman
Fairfield, CA
LNCE


----- Original Message ----
From: "MikeEasley [at] aol.com" <MikeEasley [at] aol.com>

I departing fly-ins, we often don't follow our "normal" run-up
procedures.  We end up checking the mags and prop rolling down a
taxiway. .....




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.



Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <N66mg [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:06:49 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Well, said and amen
 
In a message dated 4/19/2008 6:13:26 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tom.gourley [at] verizon.net writes:

After reading the recent posts on this subject I
think some of the hypotheses surrounding a possible broken engine mount and
how the canopy came to be unlatched are starting to get a little far out
there.  I suggest it's time to give it a rest and let the experts
determine the cause; even though that will probably take longer than we'd
like.
 
Tom Gourley
 

 





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Matt Reeves <mattreeves [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:37:07 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
If I was going down...
 
In a Cessna or Piper, I'd crack open the door in a heartbeat (and we've all been taught that), but in a Lancair, I'd think twice.
 
I agree that the canopy closed does offer more safety, especially if you roll over, hopefully you won't get crushed,  but I do recall an accident a few years back where 2 people burned alive inside a Lancair and couldn't get out.  No one on the outside knew how to open the canopy and by the time someone found a rock, it was too late. 
 
This is one of the reasons of the new, easier latching system that could easily be opened from the outside.
 
I guess whatever your gut tells you to do in those critical seconds, is the right decision and hopefully you walk away.
 
Matt

VTAILJEFF [at] aol.com wrote:

Mark,
 
Excellent thoughts!
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 4/18/2008 11:32:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, marknlisa [at] hometel.com writes:

Even disregarding the possible aerodynamic issues, I don't think opening the canopy in preparation for a crash is such a good idea.
I think an unlatched canopy has a much greater possibility of being torn from the fuselage. If it *IS* torn from the fuselage, I would think there's a good chance it will
strike the occupant(s). Additionally, a closed and latched canopy can provide the occupants protection from debris, fuel and fire postcrash.
If you are concerned the canopy might jam closed, consider this: I recall a warning in the USAF KC-135 Dash-1 (operating manual) that states (in so many words) any crash violent enough to jam a hatch closed will likely provide a fuselage break for egress.


Regards,
Mark Sletten
 
Steve Reeves [sreeves [at] sc.rr.com] said:
> I tend to agree. I know my instructor, when we were doing instrument
> training in a Cheetah, would tell > me to slide the canopy back, stick
> your shoe in it (or something similar) and slide it back onto
> whatever you were cramming into it.
> Steve





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:00:56 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for "don wwww" <skagitvalley [at] earthlink.net>:



 Is it possible to get out if your upside down? I've thought about that quite

a lot. I've thought about things like a brake failure on one side, running off

the runway finding yourself upside down watching fuel running out , then to

your horror waching it turn directly towards you after finding a "nice" low

spot right under your head. (not that it would really matter, if there was

fuel running out under the plane anywhere the results would be the same) Your

laying there helpless  you've been trying to get out but you can't cause

theres too much airplane weight against the canopy. Of course thats only if

the conopy has'nt been broken & now your head and neck are the highest thing

in the forward part of the airplane. Then you hear & feeel a puff!!!!!!!  Just

like discribed with the 2 people burning. How horrible to be unhurt in a

fairly minor accident only to burn because you can't get out! Does anybody

know of  times lancairs have gotten upside down & they have gotten out? How

did they? Did they need to lift or turn the plane over? Whats the survival

rate? Do the canopys usually crush or not?    Don

 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:02:34 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for "terrence o'neill" <troneill [at] charter.net>:



 Matt,

 I have kit #11 finishing up, and would really like to know about the "new,

easier latching system" for the canopy.

 Thanks,

 Terrence, L235/320

 N211AL

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:03:02 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for vtailjeff [at] aol.com:



 Matt,

 

 I give checkrides as designated pilot examiner and have yet to see anyone

crack open the door on a simulated engine out landing during a checkride. In

fact, many private pilots do not complete the entire checklist. There is a BIG

difference between what pilots are taught and what pilots do.

 

 Jeff

 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Dan Schaefer <dfs155 [at] roadrunner.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:04:34 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

The following URL links to an article in AVweb in which an eye witness to the take-off of the accident airplane states that he saw the canopy moving up and down 6 - 12 inches during take-off climb. There are other eye witness' statements in the report regarding "loss of engine power".



Dan Schaefer

LNC2







(http://www.avweb.com/newspics/lancair-legacy_sun-n-fun-crash_large.jpg)Click --

I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.

It has removed 149 spam emails to date.

Paying users do not have this message in their emails.

Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Matt Reeves <mattreeves [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:11:30 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Jeff,
 
That's true there is a big difference between what people are taught and what they do and sometimes that could be good or bad, depending on their gut and the circumstances.  I only hope I would make the appropriate decision based on my situation and all that I have been taught.
 
Although all of my instructors taught me to crack the door open in a Cessna or Piper if you're going down, they also taught me NOT to actually do it unless you are really going down, just review it in your mind and on your checklist.   
 
You don't want to create a problem if you don't have to - for example - suppose you have a student going through a checklist, he flies the plane, does his emergency checklist, picks a landing sport, and actually cracks open the door and it flies off and hits the tail - slim chance but those hinges are cheap and flimsy on a
Cessna.  
 
You are entirely correct though.
 
Matt
 


marv [at] lancair.net wrote:

Posted for vtailjeff [at] aol.com:

Matt,

I give checkrides as designated pilot examiner and have yet to see anyone
crack open the door on a simulated engine out landing during a checkride. In
fact, many private pilots do not complete the entire checklist. There is a BIG
difference between what pilots are taught and what pilots do.

Jeff



--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Matt Reeves <mattreeves [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:11:30 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Terrence,
 
In the good ol'e days, Lancair used 4 seperate latches to lock the canopy but once locked, could not be opened from the outside.  After they came out with the forward hinge canopy, they came out with the torque tube latching system which is very easy to open from the inside and outside with just one flick of the latch.    It was easy to install and I've loved how you can adjust how tight you want your canopy latched.   There is no chance of an accidental opening in flight because it is spring locked. 
 
Hope that helps.  I think Lancair still sells that and it is similar, if not exactly the same as the Legacy latching system. 
 
For the record, I also carry an axe - hope I never have to use it but it would be better than nothing if I ever had to get out and my canopy was jammed or upside down, maybe I could chop through
the passenger seat floor, who knows.  Knock on fiberglass.
 
Matt

marv [at] lancair.net wrote:

Posted for "terrence o'neill"
:

Matt,
I have kit #11 finishing up, and would really like to know about the "new,
easier latching system" for the canopy.
Thanks,
Terrence, L235/320
N211AL

--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Greg Ward <gregw [at] onestopdesign.biz>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:11:30 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Good Lord Don, relax.  You can die in any aircraft ever built.  Agonizing about statistics and how you're going to die, does no good.  Using the practices that we are all taught in order to become pilots is how you overcome these issues, and prepare for the unkown.  If you are this worried, don't fly.  Period.

Greg Ward



----- Original Message ----- From: <marv [at] lancair.net>

To: <lml>

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:00 PM

Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation




Posted for "don wwww" <skagitvalley [at] earthlink.net>:



 Is it possible to get out if your upside down? I've thought about that quite

a lot. I've thought about things like a brake failure on one side, running off

the runway finding yourself upside down watching fuel running out , then to

your horror waching it turn directly towards you after finding a "nice" low

spot right under your head. (not that it would really matter, if there was

fuel running out under the plane anywhere the results would be the same) Your

laying there helpless  you've been trying to get out but you can't cause

theres too much airplane weight against the canopy. Of course thats only if

the conopy has'nt been broken & now your head and neck are the highest thing

in the forward part of the airplane. Then you hear & feeel a puff!!!!!!! Just

like discribed with the 2 people burning. How horrible to be unhurt in a

fairly minor accident only to burn because you can't get out! Does anybody

know of  times lancairs have gotten upside down & they have gotten out? How

did they? Did they need to lift or turn the plane over? Whats the survival

rate? Do the canopys usually crush or not?    Don



--

For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <marv [at] lancair.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:38:04 -0400
To: <lml>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Posted for VTAILJEFF [at] aol.com:



 Matt,

 

 You are correct. I know we often simulate so many things in training that

 when it comes time for real the pilot says"open door--simulated" <grin>  The

 point is train (to the maximum extent possible), think about the what ifs

 all

 the time, have a game plan before the stuff hits the fan, etc.

 

 Its not IF you will ever have an engine failure, canopy open etc. but WHEN

 you will have one. Fly like a Boy Scout.

 

 Regards,

 

 Jeff

 

 

Legacy crash - speculation

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: terrence o'neill <troneill [at] charter.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy crash - speculation
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:39:44 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Many thanks, Matt.  I'll go to Lancair and see if they
still have a print available..  Terrence--
For archives
and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Pages

Post a Reply

More information about text formats

Filtered HTML

  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Each email address will be obfuscated in a human readable fashion or, if JavaScript is enabled, replaced with a spam resistent clickable link. Email addresses will get the default web form unless specified. If replacement text (a persons name) is required a webform is also required. Separate each part with the "|" pipe symbol. Replace spaces in names with "_".
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <blockquote> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <h1> <h2> <h3>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.

Plain text

  • No HTML tags allowed.
  • Each email address will be obfuscated in a human readable fashion or, if JavaScript is enabled, replaced with a spam resistent clickable link. Email addresses will get the default web form unless specified. If replacement text (a persons name) is required a webform is also required. Separate each part with the "|" pipe symbol. Replace spaces in names with "_".
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
Attachments
Files must be less than 512 MB.
Allowed file types: jpg jpeg gif png txt doc docx xls xlsx pdf ppt pptx pps ppsx odt ods odp mp3 mov mp4 m4a m4v mpeg avi ogg oga ogv weba webp webm.